tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post891410378350090842..comments2023-11-05T07:53:12.708-05:00Comments on Poets United: Moonlight MusingsRosemary Nissen-Wadehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-82240432677116622062017-04-30T09:59:50.467-04:002017-04-30T09:59:50.467-04:00Biswajit, I think your thoughtful verses complete ...Biswajit, I think your thoughtful verses complete this discussion beautifully, and your arguments are very convincing.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-15283362632417582102017-04-28T04:09:00.473-04:002017-04-28T04:09:00.473-04:00Thank you Rosemary. The point was interesting.
Fr...Thank you Rosemary. The point was interesting.<br /><br />Friends,<br />Few minutes please?<br />Here are my lines:<br /><br />Humans hold values<br />Like math-variables.<br />Life computes on us;<br />Willingly, or helplessly,<br />Sometimes unawarely<br />We change.<br /><br />Fans and followers<br />Are hurt:<br />How can our idols<br />Catch a scratch ever!<br /><br />They overlook<br />Artists too are humans,<br />Only overstretched.<br /><br />It's hard to retain<br />Values once gained,<br />Unless we become<br />As tough as a saint.<br /><br />One may decay, or,<br />Become divine<br />Depending on the<br />Way they walk on.<br />But, a masterpiece,<br />Once created, forever<br />Masters hearts of millions.<br /><br />While finishing<br />A masterpiece,<br />The artist attains<br />Enlightenment,<br />But that is very hard<br />To retain.<br />Whenever lost,<br />The world would see<br />The artist gloomy.<br />...<br /><br />Beauty can’t hide blemishes;<br />Saw the moon?<br />Fire fails to fade filthy scars;<br />Knew the sun?<br />Could we then<br />Decline sun-rays and moonlight<br />As their sources aren't spotless?<br /><br />Sparking artists are<br />Earthian stars;<br />Condemn deeds you dislike<br />If any, for sure!<br />But, can who-they-are make<br />Witful works impure?<br /><br /><br />Condemning creator's misdeeds,<br />Generations to come should<br />Worship worthy works.<br /><br />That's all.BISWAJIT Mukhopadhyayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106934000045978897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-33178923601199552292017-04-24T10:57:56.781-04:002017-04-24T10:57:56.781-04:00A very interesting discussion, both here and on fa...A very interesting discussion, both here and on facebook, where I posted a link to this post and some people commented there. While it's clear that no definite conclusion can be drawn that covers all cases, you've all helped to clarify for me that for the most part I would want to consider art on its own merits – but it's a subjective thing when all's said and done, and we all have our sticking-points when it comes to issues of tolerance or judgment, so there will probably be some people whose art we won't want to deal with. It probably depends, too, on the greatness of the art, and how long ago the artist lived. Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-21195020621539699902017-04-24T10:49:10.703-04:002017-04-24T10:49:10.703-04:00I think it is actually natural to respond to a pie...I think it is actually natural to respond to a piece of art as itself, in the immediate moment, regardless of who produced it. And then we might come to notice that we tend always to like work by a particular poet, painter or composer, so they'll become a favourite. Then it can be very disappointing to learn about failings in their personal lives. I don't know if we can view a work of art in a vacuum, but perhaps we should try. It's very interesting that we tend to be more tolerant towards actors and pop stars.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-67285830551091884502017-04-24T09:12:57.494-04:002017-04-24T09:12:57.494-04:00You have made some good points, Rosemary!You have made some good points, Rosemary!Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07366010389846904663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-76187366263455430212017-04-23T11:11:50.881-04:002017-04-23T11:11:50.881-04:00What a thoughtful post, thank you Rosemary...we th...What a thoughtful post, thank you Rosemary...we think we have learned everything, know everything...it seems it is only now, we are beginning to understand about male harassment of women...how he should act...how to respect women. (Something women have alwaqys known.) Abuse of children. Should it be, "off with their heads?" Or is there another way? What should one do, what would make it OK. <br /><br />I don't think anyone intentionally does bad things. But often times change and we do not change with it. I think we hope for the best of everyone. <br /><br /> Now to your question....it is a hard one. And pershaps we should all consider these questions...but would it make us "moralists."<br /><br /><br />Who are we to say? Perhaps the "arts" is a place for all of us sinners...perhaps the one who is less, have a lot to say? Perhaps a deeper understanding of the struggles some of us live. annell4https://www.blogger.com/profile/07629830133868270690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-38046288334626891602017-04-23T01:34:31.369-04:002017-04-23T01:34:31.369-04:00Concerning Walcott, a point I didn't make in t...Concerning Walcott, a point I didn't make in the article, which occurs to me more forcefully now, is that, had he not withdrawn himself for consideration for the Oxford position, the University would have had to consider whether he was likely to be a threat to any students there on the basis of his past record. Who knows what the decision might have been? But it seems to me very clear-cut that the wellbeing of students takes precedence over the quality of his poetry and teaching, even in a Higher Educational institution – all the more so as he was not the only noted poet available. I don't see how a case could have been made for employing him – unless the allegation were disbelieved, or he offered ample evidence of having repented and reformed. This is a different matter from whether his conduct affects the way we should value the poetry itself.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-1148966061503232722017-04-23T01:21:44.327-04:002017-04-23T01:21:44.327-04:00I guess I am saying that you probably need not hav...I guess I am saying that you probably need not have denied yourself his poetry – but on the other hand (with some exceptions) you haven't missed much!Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-45884273246003015272017-04-23T01:19:12.390-04:002017-04-23T01:19:12.390-04:00I think these are wise words, Elizabeth, about res...I think these are wise words, Elizabeth, about respecting one's own work and the healing aspect of Creativity. I guess that, for the most part, we have to take the finished work of art on its own merits regardless of how, or by whom, it was produced – but there may be extreme cases in which we can't think the art, no matter how brilliant, worth the cost. And it is probably a very individual matter as to where we draw the line. We have two issues here – which is due to the way I raised the various questions: how do we relate to art by people whose behaviour we abhor? And what limits do we place on ourselves – or what lengths will we go to – in the service of our art? You have found your own ethical stance and are very clear about it; that can only be good.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-27326910123941756402017-04-23T01:00:07.977-04:002017-04-23T01:00:07.977-04:00Yes, I think a case-by-case basis is the only way ...Yes, I think a case-by-case basis is the only way really. And it can't help but be a subjective thing.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-70820149221996765502017-04-23T00:56:04.419-04:002017-04-23T00:56:04.419-04:00At his early best Hughes was often very good, but ...At his early best Hughes was often very good, but I don't think he was ever the poetic genius that Plath was; and his Poet Laureate job resulted in vast quantities of work which I thought turgid and boring. (But I suppose feeding his kids was an important consideration in taking that job.) Plath was suicidal on and off most of her short life; I don't think one can say he was the cause. No-one can know for certain, but I think the accusation of brutality is probably unfair and exaggerated. And after her death, it is Hughes we have to thank for the fact that Plath's remarkable body of work is out there. Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-62457871054728049742017-04-22T21:58:50.340-04:002017-04-22T21:58:50.340-04:00Very interesting article to ponder, Rosemary. I d...Very interesting article to ponder, Rosemary. I do wonder how many poets I have read who, if I knew some of the things they did in their life, I might be turned off by. Some people have inferred that Sylvia Plath's husband Ted Hughes had driven her to suicide with his brutality...thus, having read Plath's work, I have never been able to read Ted Hughes' poetry at all, no matter HOW good he might be. I do think I am influenced by things that a person has done with their life, and that can impact me as to whether or not I want anything to do with their art at all. I am like Wendy, I think. It would be on a case to case basis for me as well.Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07366010389846904663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-7453922532844613182017-04-22T20:51:12.994-04:002017-04-22T20:51:12.994-04:00Another fascinating article, Rosemary. I agree th...Another fascinating article, Rosemary. I agree that there are some crimes that would very much taint my appreciation of a poet's work. On the other hand, I have long believed that great artists 'push the envelope'. They are risk takers. And individuals that take risks in their art, often, take risks in their personal lives. It is part of their psyche. If I were to have elected to avoid artists who are addicts and alcoholics - I'm afraid I would have denied myself a lot of great art. On the other hand if - while out of control under the influence - an artist committed a crime, would that influence my appreciation of his word. Would I avoid it completely. I suppose that would be a case-by-case basis. You have raised some interesting issues here, Rosemary. Wendy Bourkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09475940407969993348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-75187551569796081992017-04-22T19:25:45.009-04:002017-04-22T19:25:45.009-04:00Excellent essay, Rosemary and one that will have m...Excellent essay, Rosemary and one that will have me thinking, questioning, etc., for weeks to come, probably months before I actually begin to form some sort of response. I'm still in shock that this country has elected a self-defined sexual abuser to its highest office of leadership, choosing to ignore or downplay that reality. <br /><br />I have spent over half of my life supporting and encouraging abuse victims, so your questions hit hard and close to home. I know that we are all human, thus imperfect. That we all do things we'd prefer not be made public knowledge. But, my question here is, what of responsibility? Not just to our Art, but also toward others? I loved reading and exploring the Beat Generation of poets, only to discover that they, for the most part, felt that to really be good, they had to overwhelm their senses with booze, drugs, and sex. And encouraged each other to do so. But, that only begs the question of how much better they might have been without those particular notions. <br /><br />For my own part, having lived with abuse, I decided that I'd do my Art without the added incentives. Has it made a difference? Yes. To me it has. I may never be applauded, let alone, as well-known as many that have been mentioned here, but I do respect the work I am capable of doing. And that is enough. <br /><br />I believe that Creativity is a built-in healing agent, when it is allowed to flourish without the additives. And because of that, it will lead us to those areas within that need to be healed. A life that can not respect itself will not flourish. But either way, it will prove to be a lesson to all of us. One can only hope,<br /><br />ElizabethAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-8640200504577695642017-04-22T09:02:16.524-04:002017-04-22T09:02:16.524-04:00Thanks for adding to the discussion. Yes, I think ...Thanks for adding to the discussion. Yes, I think you are right about both personal bias and human complexity. And I'm sure it's clear that I thoroughly agree with your assessment of Dransfield. Yes, I was just reading today an account by Rodney Hall about him kicking the drugs and getting healthy – until that damn motorbike accident, not even his fault, landed him in hospital on prescribed painkillers which re-addicted him. Very sad.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-78250880083395535302017-04-22T08:52:07.734-04:002017-04-22T08:52:07.734-04:00Good to know, Sumana, that some of the great are a...Good to know, Sumana, that some of the great are also good! And perhaps the others are in the minority, after all.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-71670347291783092512017-04-22T03:45:23.676-04:002017-04-22T03:45:23.676-04:00I think we should separate the singer from the son...I think we should separate the singer from the song but I do not think it is possible.<br />Personal bias is impossible for most to overcome. For a completely fair assessment, work should be judged without knowledge of the author . <br /><br />This does not or will ever occur for many reasons, most of which are self serving and not altruistic. Anyone in academic life will attest to this.<br /><br />I am most fortunate in that I don't like Walcott, Picasso Hemingway or Rolf Harris .I have not read Goebbels.I would be very surprised if I liked it. The problem with translations when it deals with poetry is that they are mainly translated by linguists...the reason translations of poetry are usually abysmal unless the translator is a poet as well.But I will definitely read his poems to be certain.<br /><br />If I love the work of an artist I am not too interested in the background story . If an artist is interesting and engaging and I do not know their work, I want to read hear or see the work ... and more often than not the experience is disappointing. So good interesting and vibrant people do not always produce good work and vice versa.Humans are forever complexity personified <br /><br />Michael Dransfield was a wonderful poet and sadly, mainly unknown ... far superior to many of our revered poets showcased in our school curricula which guarantee a poetry free existence for future generations. I read his biography many years ago. It is out of print now .He did try to rid himself of the monkey on his back but its grip was too tight.Yes...bet you have read Helen Garner as well.<br />PS<br />And I must be the only literate Australian who did not appreciate or observe any apparent genius in John Clark as well.<br /><br />Thought provoking and excellent article Rosemary...it's a cracker luv ! <br /><br /><br />rallentandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06980559347805844568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-7285589744452401462017-04-22T01:05:02.767-04:002017-04-22T01:05:02.767-04:00DerekDerekSumana Royhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17333363799083094084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-24903864544760011812017-04-22T00:14:24.784-04:002017-04-22T00:14:24.784-04:00Today’s topic is very interesting Rosemary and I e...Today’s topic is very interesting Rosemary and I enjoyed every word of yours that comes from such depth. I think art is a journey and the wayfarers are the chosen few. It would be perfect if singers could be the chalice and their song the divine wine. But often integrity, human values and talent do not blend. It’s sad but as you say life is strange. Like learning about David Walcott I really feel the hurt. Is being humane that difficult for such people? Hypocrisy can’t be digested. Then some talents are so often overwhelmed with the inner power they have; a bit frenzy driven they seem to be. A little balance, a little responsibility would have done them a world of good. Not sure if their art would have suffered for that or not but at least an untimely death could have been averted. In this context I must say I am really amazed at Tagore. With that huge talent and considering the abysmal grief he was thrown into so unfairly by Fate from the age of fourteen how perfectly balanced human being he was. His long eighty years of artful existence is ample proof of that. Critics till date haven’t unearthed anything to disenchant us of this wonderful gentleman.<br /> <br /><br />Sumana Royhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17333363799083094084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-3049146309156896252017-04-21T23:46:59.110-04:002017-04-21T23:46:59.110-04:00Oh, and also I think we do need to take into accou...Oh, and also I think we do need to take into account that we are struggling towards enlightenment, and some things which are highly unacceptable now seemed perfectly OK to our predecessors.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-54254805860203027412017-04-21T23:45:13.495-04:002017-04-21T23:45:13.495-04:00Great comment, thanks Timoteo! I do for the most p...Great comment, thanks Timoteo! I do for the most part tend to separate the art and the life, and agree with you about Hemingway on both counts. (Still it can be shocking to learn how very clayed some feet are.)Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-59533087754316979882017-04-21T20:14:29.562-04:002017-04-21T20:14:29.562-04:00Excellent essay! Now, how far do we want to take t...Excellent essay! Now, how far do we want to take this judgement thing? Some things that would horrify me might not be a big deal to you, and vice-versa. Hemingway was a trophy hunter. I find killing just for the blood sport of it to be despicable. Others (like Trump's sons, for example) would have no problem with it. We all have our own personal standards. We are all "sinners" in the secular sense because we're not perfect. Art is derived from life experience, and everything that has occurred in the artist's life up to the point of creating a particular work has contributed to it. I just read a book of essays by Mary Gaitskill--a brilliant writer--who unabashedly acknowledges an early lifestyle that would give many a moralist a heart attack. So where does this judgement thing start, and where does it end? There's no rule of thumb, because it's personal to each one of us. I'm a fan of Hemingway's writing, not his lifestyle, so I must definitely separate the two. And keep telling myself not to be the one to cast the first stone.Timoteohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08351410966396854582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-45971390307200104412017-04-21T18:22:02.519-04:002017-04-21T18:22:02.519-04:00Further, I am reminded of the oft-quoted advice, t...Further, I am reminded of the oft-quoted advice, to hate the evil deed, not the person. If we can make that separation, perhaps it makes it easier to also separate the artistic work from the person and view it on its own merits.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-90793136926571308412017-04-21T18:17:36.797-04:002017-04-21T18:17:36.797-04:00What ? 'Amazing Grace' was written by an e...What ? 'Amazing Grace' was written by an evil slave trader?! I have now Googled and found that he did eventually feel remorse at his involvement in this industry, and supported the abolitionist movement – though late in his life and quite a long time after his conversion to Christianity. Perhaps the great comfort and joy this hymn has brought to so many redeems him? We can't just look at the evil people do; there is also the good to take into account. Most of us are a mixture.Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4139625267522039683.post-83764789296714077802017-04-21T18:06:56.377-04:002017-04-21T18:06:56.377-04:00Thanks to you, Peter, for your kind words; and for...Thanks to you, Peter, for your kind words; and for your thoughtful opinion on the topic. Yes, I incline to the the view that in some (many!) cases we must assess the art in its own right, by artistic criteria, so long as it does not in itself promote evil. Sometimes, I suppose, we must make a subjective judgment about that. (I don't, for instance, view Bill Henson as a pornographer.) All such opinions and decisions are subjective, I guess, when you come right down to it. And I do think it's a matter of degree. The more horrifying the crime, the less I can disentangle it from the art. Also, distance (of time) does lend, or reveal enchantment. We can enjoy Villon because it wasn't us he was robbing and bashing; that was all centuries ago, in a particular era and country; it is only the verse which has lasted.<br /><br />Rosemary Nissen-Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913841031559499568noreply@blogger.com